Media
audio-visual document

Oral History Interview with Vera Avery

Title
Oral History Interview with Vera Avery
Interviewee
Vera Avery
Interviewer
Lizzy Ray
Description
Vera Avery of Cleveland, North Carolina was interviewed by Lizzy Ray, a Sewanee student, on October 15th, 2023 on Zoom. While their conversation was primarily on the Black Lives Matter Movement, other topics included Segregation during the Jim Crow era, and Vera’s childhood in Cleveland, NC. We hope that this conversation will assist scholars with a further understanding of race in the United States during the early twenty-first century. Please click on the link to see the full interview.
Transcript
0:25 Lizzy Ray: Hi, Vera.

0:35 Vera Avery: Okay, I'm sorry. Let me get rid of my background picture.

0:38 Lizzy Ray: You're all good.

0:39 Vera Avery: How are you?

0:40 Lizzy Ray: I'm good. How are you?

0:42 Vera Avery: I'm good. Let me figure out how to get rid of this.

0:47 Lizzy Ray: You're all good. You might occasionally hear a cat talk.

0:51 Vera Avery: Okay.

0:52 Lizzy Ray: Sorry about that. She's currently sleeping, so hopefully we're good.

1:01 Vera Avery: You know... I really do want to get rid of this background picture, but I don't do zoom on my phone very much and I'm not sure where my little options are to move this.

1:14 Lizzy Ray: It's all good.

1:16 Vera Avery: Okay. I'm going to figure it out though. Okay. Stop video. Lemme go over here. Oh, here it is. Background and effects, and I want none. Okay. I think. Go. Well. I'm not inept. I promise you I'm not, but it's

1:43 Lizzy Ray: All good. Don't worry. I promise.

1:47 Vera Avery: Okay. You look so much like your mom.

1:50 Lizzy Ray: Thank you. She'll appreciate to hear that.

1:55 Vera Avery: Okay, I think we're good now.

1:57 Lizzy Ray: Beautiful. Okay. I can start out with something that my professor gave me as like a base thing. Okay. This is Lizzy Ray from Sewanee, the University of South. It is Sunday, October 15th at 3:59 PM and I am with, if you could state your name and where you're from.

2:19 Vera Avery: I'm Vera Avery from Cleveland, North Carolina.

2:22 Lizzy Ray: Awesome.
2:24 Cool. So Vera, were you originally born in Cleveland?

2:30 Vera Avery: I was. I, I'm sorry.

2:34 Lizzy Ray: You're all good.

2:37 Vera Avery: I lived here until I went to college in Chapel Hill when I was 18. Moved back home briefly after school and then back to the triangle area after about four years and lived there for about 20 years and then moved back home here about 15 years ago.

2:57 Lizzy Ray: Beautiful.

2:58 Vera Avery: Okay.

3:04 Lizzy Ray: Umm... One of my general questions to ask you is how did you find community as a child? Were you in anything?

3:15 Vera Avery: Hmm... Okay. So when I was a child, most of my community activities and everything evolved around either the school or the church. We were very active with our church. Most of our afternoon, evening activities were church related or with our school, our school being a community school. And when I first started school, it was a segregated school, so I went to a segregated school up until the third grade. But because it was a community school and the teachers were here in the community and their families, those families and everybody were part of the community, those things kind of intermingled. So they were always either school related or church related and was, my community was very family oriented, very intermingled, lots of different family relationships, so people who felt like family. So it was very close knit and for the most part it was a very good childhood, very safe. I get nostalgic when I think about it. It was a good place to grow up.

4:28 Lizzy Ray: Perfect. Umm... Now, can you tell me a little bit more about your childhood? What was your family situation? What was it maybe going to a segregated school?

4:40 Vera Avery: Okay. So my family situation was pretty bread and butter up until I was about six when my father died. He died as a result of an accident at his job. He worked on the railroad. My mother didn't work until that time, but after he died, she went back to school and got some certifications and started working in daycare centers, things like that. I have four sisters and two brothers. My oldest brother was quite a bit older, so he was not really in the house when I grew up. He was 18 years older than me, so he was starting college when I was born. So I don't remember him really being in the house that much, although he came back quite often. But we were, I would say, lower economic status. I mean, I probably would be labeled as poor, but because everybody else was poor, it was hard to really have that context about yourself or realize it until you were out of that community.
5:43 But no one had a lot, but we all had enough, my school that I attended up until, like I said, third grade, was a great school. I actually work with the renovation that school now, but like I said, we were very close. Our teachers were community members. I would go spend the weekends with some of my teachers, stuff that you wouldn't hear of now, but it was a really good school and felt really supported and felt like people always expected you to achieve. And if you weren't doing what you should do, your teachers would call your parents and come talk to them. And so it was a very supportive environment. And so when we had to integrate in '68, they closed our school and we had to go to Cleveland Elementary at that time. And that was a little bit traumatic. My mother was a big advocate of separate but equal.
6:47 She wanted them to improve our community school and bring the facilities up to par, but she wanted us to stay in our community because she felt like we were much better supported there. There had been voluntary integration for about three to four years before they finally said, you have to integrate. And we had some of our community members who went to the white schools at that time, but it wasn't a lot. And their experiences were... you know, some were okay and some had a difficult time, but my mother was always a little bit reluctant or concerned about how that transition was going to be for us when we had to integrate and when we had to integrate... you know, You're very comfortable in your neighborhood, very comfortable in your community. And even though Cleveland is a small town, is very, very geographically small town, well, I would say our interactions with the white people in the town were somewhat limited, except when you went to the store or something like that, there were very separate neighborhoods, very clear lines of demarcation between the white community and the black community. Not a lot of mixing except for transactions, so to speak. So I was a little bit nervous about it, but I felt comfortable about the learning part, but just how the relationships were going to be. I was nervous about that. And I think a lot of that I picked up from my mom and some of the other people in the community. And then you heard rumblings about you know how bad it was in some areas when things were happening, and so you had that kind of external, what do I want to say? Influences as well about what would happen when that happened.

8:59 Lizzy Ray: Awesome. I recently did a whole, well, I know Cleveland's in the triangle area recently did a whole research thing on how the Black power movement and the civil rights movement affected Appalachia, and mainly how it wasn't able to kind of insert into the Appalachian area as a child, did you know of the Black Power Movement, did you know of the civil rights movement? Was it active in Cleveland?

9:28 Vera Avery: I would not say it was active under those terms, so to speak. I know my mom was just such a, I don't want to say activist in a way, because I don't think she would've described herself that way, but she was always kind of on the forefront and knowing what was going on in the community and wasn't very much a community leader. I know that she went, she and my aunt went to the march on Washington when it happened.

9:55 Lizzy Ray: That's awesome.

9:57 Vera Avery: We didn't even know where she was. We just knew she fell at his found for a day or two, but she did that. But as far as there being a black power movement, like I said, I wouldn't hear it. I wouldn't hear it being phrased like that. I just know that there was always a lot of discussion and a lot of tension, increasing tension.
10:20 And you know the way we know something was going on is when the ladies in the community would start gathering in little groups and start talking sometimes, and I like, what's going on? And then my sister would say, oh, they're talking about such and such. I don't know how she always knew, but she always knew what was going on. So I do know that there was pushes for, you know, increased access to voting and talks about rights. And then the whole issue about the integration was just a big topic. Like I said, I was about eight years old at that time, so I was just kind of becoming interested in what the adults were talking about, because most of the time I was not. Most of the time I was just trying to do understand. So yeah, I was aware, but it wasn't a big push, I would say.

11:18 Lizzy Ray: Okay. When you were going through middle school, high school or elementary school, as you said, when you were integrated into the Cleveland Public school system, was it ever taught to you what was currently going on in the country or anything like that?

11:40 Vera Avery: When you say taught to me, taught to me in school or taught to me by in

11:45 Lizzy Ray: School, my family or in school?

11:47 Vera Avery: No, no. There was nothing ever taught in school about anything would say up to until maybe high school, but not in elementary school, not in junior high or anything like that. There was not anything. I do know that there was, like I said, increased tension in the community. As a matter of fact, before the night before we integrated, we had the Klan walk through, come through our neighborhood, which was very frightening because even though you heard about the Klan, and you certainly knew them, and there was evidence of evidence of them quite openly displayed, sometimes it was just something that was kind of background. Most of the time you saw it, you knew what it was, but it really wasn't something that you were that aware of. It was kind like, I don't want to say benign, but it was kind of a background presence.
12:47 But that was mostly, you were aware of it and you knew who to kind of avoid, but it really didn't do anything unless they got activated. But when they decided to integrate schools to force that integration, it did get activated. And they did try to intimidate, although it was like, why are you coming here? We're not the ones who were really pushing for it, at least not in my house. So my mom was not really pushing for it, but everybody in the neighborhood knew that they were coming, and my mom had the shotgun. My oldest brother had, you know, a rifle, and they were standing at the doors and they made us go up in the attic, so in case something happened, but mainly they just walked through or walked through town, drove through town and made a lot of noise and waved the flags and things like that. But when we actually integrated, there was not very much disruption at our schools. But, and I know I kind of went further field, but in teaching anything, no, there was nothing really taught about it until high school level. And at that point in time, I would say you had a little bit more about black power, awareness, things like that happening. People start wearing the Afros, people start wearing more African type garb, that type of thing. So that started emerging when I was in high school.

14:11 Lizzy Ray: Getting back to how you said you were rushed to the attic when the Klan came, did you know what was going on or were you just, and your siblings just told,

14:22 Vera Avery: We were just told my sisters and I to get up in the attic and stay up in there until either mom or my brother came to get us. And we knew something was going on because all day and days before, people were whispering and there was all these little knots of things and you could see stuff happening in the neighborhood, what's going on. And so one of my siblings, I think my oldest sister said she had heard they were going to come through. And so when mom said, get up in the attic, we figured that was what that was. And then the whole time, I was just really just worried about what if they did something to my mother or brother or something like that. But we could see out of the... the opening through the attic eaves kind of thing. We could see them with, they had some torches and they had on their clan gear, and you could kind of see them come through.
15:22 And every house in the neighborhood was dark. It was just lights from the torches that you could see, and you just kind of sit there and prayed until they left, until they got out of our neighborhood. And then gradually my brother came and got us out of the attic, and then people were out in the streets kind of talking about it, but no one really sit there and explained, okay, they're mad because we're integrating. It was just like the Klan was marching because they were upset about. So I don't know. It was one of the most impactful things I remember as a child, but really nothing happened other than them trying to be intimidating and it didn't stop anything. So that was the, it's like why did they go do all that? Because it was court ordered. It wasn't something that they could stop just by walking through the neighborhood.

16:22 Lizzy Ray: Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that story. Appreciate it. Ummm... Did your mother, after she and your aunt went to the march on Washington, did they tell you about that or anything like that?

16:39 Vera Avery: They really didn't. My mother was more one to, she never really shared the things that were concerning her with her children. It's kind of interesting when I think about it sometimes. She always tried to shield us from any things that were her concerns or that really where she thought she was always the kind of person who was going to handle things. She would really just try to keep things compartmentalized, I guess. Grown folks things, children's things, whatever. I mean, she told us when we, I'll never forget when we went to the first day of school when we went to school, she said, okay, don't say anything. If anybody says anything, don't say anything back to them. Talk to your teachers. If anybody hits you, then you can hit 'em back, but don't start anything. But you know, I found out years later from one of my old teachers that my mom and some other people in the community have been going up to the school prior to the integration and talking to them about, okay, this is what's going to happen.
17:55 You need to make sure those kids know because we're not going to let our kids get beat up and you know, get attacked and things like that, and expect them not to retaliate. They're going to do what they need to do to protect themselves, but they're not going to start anything. So that was kind of interesting to find that out, that she was kind of, I guess, a spokesperson for the black community during that period, and so they were as proactive as they could be, but they didn't want to communicate any of those things to us, I guess, for us to have to go in thinking a certain way. And for the most part, everything was great. I had one little girl who told me that she wasn't supposed to talk to me, and she said, and she sat and talked to me the whole class, but she told me her mom had told her not to talk to me and that she was supposed to keep to herself. But other than that, that's the only thing that was, and I wouldn't even say that was unpleasant. I just thought it was funny that she wasn't supposed to talk to me. And we went all the way through from third grade through high school together and were friendly. I would never say we were good friends, but we were always friendly. I never had a problem with her, but I just found it interesting what she was told. And so...
19:21 I know I may not end because I will go down a rabbit hole. I'm sorry. And one thing... something else.

19:26 Lizzy Ray: You are all good. You can keep talking, do not worry.

19:28 Vera Avery: Okay.

19:29 Lizzy Ray: If I talk too much, I get down in a rabbit hole too. So worked with my mother, you know that she's... awesome. I'm going to start moving into how maybe your life has been affected by the Black Lives Matter Movement in the past few years. What I've been learning as a student in the seminar that I'm currently in is that it's kind of repeating similar aspects of the Civil rights movement and what occurred when black power became a certain aspect of life. It's kind of like that whole thing where if you don't read history, you're doomed to repeat it. But it's just kind of, nothing much has changed except for maybe a few things, and people are trying to get onto that. So how do you receive your news? Do you read Apple News? Watch the news?

20:33 Vera Avery: I watch the news. I look at a lot of news things online, A lot of news sites, CNN more, most of the liberal outlets, CNN, MSNBC, TheGrio, which is more entertainment than news, kind of to speak the root. I just look at a lot of different things. I even read Fox News sometimes just to see what they're going to say, but I am kind of a news junkie and news show junkie, so I watch a lot of those things.

21:05 Lizzy Ray: Sometimes laughing at Fox News can be entertaining. So I do understand. Ummm... Do you have any experience with social media or how that was affected by the Black Lives Matter movement?

21:24 Vera Avery: I think during the Black Lives Matter movement, reading social media was hugely depressing for me because what you see sometimes are people who just jumped through hoops to negate what's been seen the evidence of their own eyes sometimes. And I don't know who it was who said that the denial of racism is more dangerous than the acts of racism itself, but that has always stuck with me. And so the characterization sometimes of the protests that were happening with the Black Lives Matter, but they've been called riots and looting and things like that. And there is an element of that. I'm not going to deny that because there are always opportunists who will try to take advantage of any kind of disruption to further their own ends.
22:19 But for the people who could not see that what they're trying to do is really address these long-term systemic, institutionalized issues that continue to manifest itself in unwarranted violence against a specific class of people. It's just so aggravating. And then when you read the stuff online, when you know, people who say such hateful things, these keyboard junkies who feel justified in just spewing out hatred about things, it is so demoralizing in some ways. So sometimes it's like, I don't even want to read it because I don't want to have to react, or I don't want to have to just ignore that. And then you have, for most black people, this duality that they have to portray all the time in public and in their workplaces, you have to react in one way and another way. You know you have a place where you can express your true feelings. And it's kind of like the manifestation of what they call code switching, which have You've heard about code switching?

23:34 Lizzy Ray: Yes.

23:35 Vera Avery: Okay. So it's that whole thing where you put on this public demeanor and people say, or people do, and you just kind of let it bounce off of you and you move on because nobody has the time to fight all those battles. So you just let it bounce and then you hear what people say. And it's been very enlightening sometimes because there are people who I have worked with who I have thought, who pretty evolved, I don't like to really use the word woke woke, but pretty aware about things because woke has been hijacked into meaning something that it doesn't mean, but who will say things like, I just can't believe the way they were out in the road blocking the highways and they were doing all this. And I say, when you say they, what do you mean? Well, the people who were doing it, but they don't want to say black people, even though that might be the majority or whoever it was, they don't want to say that, but they want to express how irritated or how terrible they felt that was. And I want to say, but I am a grown old woman, and I still understand why they're out in the streets, because I would be out in the streets if I thought that was going to do any good, or I sympathize with them who are out in the streets, but I'm also very afraid of them, afraid for them to be out in the streets because we are not protected. So you have those conversations and there are times when you do have that kind of in-depth relationship or personal relationship where you can sit here and say, okay, this is why what you said bothers me. And you can have that conversation and you can try to reach that point where they see it from your point of view.
25:17:00 Are you still there? Because my battery went to low battery mode? One moment I plug in.

25:24:00 Lizzy Ray: Plug in your phone... you are all good.

25:57:00 Vera Avery: Okay. So, but yeah, there are times when you are able to have that really good connection when something like this affords you an opportunity to have a connection with someone and discuss things at a level where you hope that they may gain some insight into what your everyday experience is. And I actually had a great conversation with one of my old bosses. He was a young white guy in his thirties, and I remember talking to him when so many of them, it's kind of hard to say which one it was. I think it may have been when Treyvon Martin was killed and how upset I was about that. And he was like, well, he fought the guy, so on and so forth. And I was like, yeah, but the guy really no business approaching him. Why was he even approaching him? And so we had a conversation and I was really disappointed in the way that conversation went, but when George Floyd died or was murdered, he called me and he said, I feel like I let you down so much during that conversation we had.
27:02:00 He said, now I see. He said, the way he so callously knelt on his neck and killed him, it made me say, this is what she was talking about all the time. And I was like, yes. And so we had this conversation. Then he was like, well, what can I do to be an ally? And so we had this really rich, deep conversation and I've got off the phone after that and just cried because it was just like, okay, you do have these moments when you feel like no one really could ever understand what you're talking about. But it had been years between those two conversations and the fact that he remembered it and then thought enough to call back and say, because I no longer worked with him, to say, I want to have this conversation with you about it. It gives you a little bit of hope, but not a lot. I can say that I'm not very hopeful most of the time, Lizzy, about things changing.

27:59:00 Lizzy Ray: I can understand that. What was your first encounter with the whole Black Lives Matter movement?

28:14:00 Vera Avery: Hmmm... I'm trying to remember. I really don't remember. I don't remember. And it is kind of sad to say that, but I guess maybe after it was either after Trayvon Martin was killed or after Jordan... Jordan, I just know he was a little boy at the convenience store whose music was too loud. It was after one of those younger people were killed. When I became aware of it being organized, and I'll have to say when I first heard of Black Lives Matter, I was like, well, that's kind of silly. Of course they do, which is what everybody say. All lives matter, whatever. But...
29:04:00 But then I thought, okay, it is very simple, but what it's trying to say, what the message is trying to get across is that you cannot continually devalue our lives by shooting us down in the streets, by shooting us without any kind of retribution, by treating us as if we're always a threat, that we're always dangerous. I have a lot of nephews and I'm always very, very concerned about them because I don't think they grow up with enough what I call protective covering. I grew up at a time when racism was blatant and in your face, and it was very evident about some things. Even though my town was kind of passively racist, it wasn't the kind of place where you were getting accosted and beat up and things like that all the time, but you knew where you were, would and would not have problems, things like that. They grew up not having to think about things like that for the most part. So sometimes I think they would just blunter into a situation where they didn't have their antenna up and then therefore not be aware when something would happen or was about to happen.
30:23:00 I've gotten off the point again,

30:25:00 Lizzy Ray: all good

30:25:00 Vera Avery: but so Black Lives Matter, when it started to be more formalized and became, they started opening chapters and things like that, I thought, okay, this is an opportunity to reenergize the Civil Rights Movement because that really had happened and crested, and I'm not going to say dissolved, but it was not, I don't think still as vocal or as much of a focal point. And so Black Lives Matter to me is kind of like the second wave in my lifetime of really industry in your face activism and protest. And I think it was... I think, because the protests of the sixties were so supposedly nonviolent that people may have felt a little bit more comfortable ignoring that. And Black Lives Matter was still had a very nonviolent premise, but people would also say, I'm going to fight back. I'm not going to just sit here and take whatever you do. So I think that made it a little bit harder to ignore, and people felt more threatened by it, which is why I think they went on to try to discredit it as much as they did. But they tried to discredit the Civil Rights movement too. They tried to say it was a capitalist, not capitalist, communist program, all of those things, and the propaganda against Dr. King and the other leaders, they always tried to discredit. So I don't know.
32:23:00 So I'm going to stop. I think I've kind of answered when I first became aware of it, but it is any kind of movement that is always subject to, like I say, people who are trying to manipulate it for their own means. And so sometimes I think some of those things have happened that has stained the reputation of the group.

32:55:00 Lizzy Ray: Yeah. Well, thank you for answering that question very much. Going back to Cleveland, North Carolina, what was Cleveland's reaction to the whole Black Lives Matter?

33:11:00 Vera Avery: It was kind of a non-reaction. Kind of funny though, because we actually did do a Black Lives Matter march through town. It was mainly the black community with, I want to say maybe four. There were maybe four white people or non-black people who participated in the march. It covered probably about six blocks. People came out, they stood in silence and watched us march. We were marching and chanting had signs. One of the police officers, the police chief white man, he walked with the march, but he was saying, not really with the marchers, but for security purposes, things like that. But it was a very, when I say non-event, we walked up through the center of town, we stopped and we had prayer, we sang, we made a couple of speeches, and then that was pretty much it. But I think, well, what we were trying to accomplish is, or trying to get away, is that even though Cleveland is a town where in general we get along, we're not unaware of the divisions that are still within the town.
34:31:00 I mean even years from now or years even now, I guess I'm trying to say there's still pretty much, it's still a segregated town for the most part. I do have one white neighbor who lives on the street where I live now, and we have some Hispanic neighbors on the back on one of the back streets back here. But other than that, the town is largely segregated except some of the housing developments on the outskirts of the town. So it's kind of interesting, but we get along. Everybody is very cordial. Community events are well attended by both races or all races. There's never been, or there has not been any kind of racial incidents over the last probably 50 years that I can think of. So for the most part, it's a pretty harmonious place. But it was very interesting when the talk was coming out about us during the march, because there's this little group that caused itself, Confederate Wire, Rowan or something like that.
35:44:00 And they were posting all on their little confederate wire about this march and how they were going to disrupt it and so on and so forth. But nothing came of that. So I didn't think anything really would, because to be truthful, had they tried, had any kind of group of really boisterous people come into the town, I think the town would've united to stop that. I don't think they would've allowed, the town allowed anyone to come in and harass us because we do get along for the most part. And I don't think they would allow outside agitators to come in and disrupt things, but it wasn't put to the test. So I don't really know.

36:28:00 Lizzy Ray: Yeah. Well, awesome. You brought up your nephews earlier. How have your sisters or you talked about this whole movement with them, or has it been topic of conversation?

36:48:00 Vera Avery: Yeah, it has been. Everybody talks about the talk that you have with your children, and I don't have children of my own, so my nieces and nephews, but it's kind of funny. My oldest nephew, well, he's not my oldest one, but he's the oldest one who grew up here in Cleveland. He and I were talking one time and he said, he used to think I was so odd when we would go someplace not safe, why? What are you talking about? And he'd say, well, you kind of would always lead us in. And you'd kind of pause and you would look around and then you'd say, oh, okay. And we'd either go in or we would not. And he said, and it took me forever until I was figuring out what you were doing. And I said, so what do you think I was doing, Michael?
37:29:00 He said, you were checking it out to see if it was a place that you felt like we were going to be safe. And I said, well, that's part of my job to make sure I don't take you into a place where you're not going to be protected or it's going to be okay. And he said, well, it was just kind of funny. He said he didn't realize for the longest time what I was doing while I was doing it. And then it gets back to that whole thing I was talking about, where they're being raised in a situation where they were always integrated and where they grew up with friends of all races and things like that.
38:04:00 They don't view their environment the same way I do. I think they all go into it feeling like we raised them, that they're good people except people as they are so on and so forth. And not to be afraid of meeting people and being friendly and being respectful, all those things. But it's hard to tell a child that people are not going to like you just because of your race or your color, things like that. And it's broken my heart a couple of times when they have found that, when they have realized that someone doesn't them just because of that reason. So we've had conversations about the riots, the demonstrations, things like that, and how we always so disappointed when a demonstration may be planned as a peaceful protest and then something happens to hijack it. But I know my sisters and I have participated in some of the demonstrations, my nephews, a couple of them have, but a whole lot of, I'm not going to say a whole lot of them.
39:08:00 Sometimes they feel like that putting yourself into harm's way, that is not the best thing to do sometimes. So I'd say they've been very judicious about it because I know one of my nephews went to some protest that was happening in Charlotte, and he said, I got there and I kind of saw the tenor of the crowd or the way some of the people were acting. And he said, I made the decision I was leaving because I just could see it going wrong. And so I was glad he left it. And when they go out and they're going to do things like that, it's very hard on me and their parents because I want to say, don't go because I want you to be safe. But at the same point in time, things are not going to get better unless you're willing to put yourself on the line and to get out there and to protest.
39:59:00 So it's just a hard thing to try to balance what can you do? And I sometimes would say, let me and your mom go, we're older black women. They're probably not going to shoot us. We can protest, but young black guys stay home because I don't trust that you will make it home safely all the time. It really is frightening for me when they're out because I know they've been raised a certain way and they're going to stand up for themselves and they're going to question things. They're very intelligent men. They're very aware of what their rights are, but sometimes you just want them to be quiet and sit back and just get home. But at the same point time, that's not the way they were raised. They were raised to stand up for themselves. But it is frightening sometimes to know that they're out there and they're having to balance those things. And sometimes that they're not aware of the possible dangers of just doing, just being who you are on a everyday basis. So we've talked about it for sure, wanted to make sure they were aware and that they understand the importance of peaceful protests. But at the same point in time, you want to shelter them from the possible repercussions of being actively involved in those things. And it's a hard balancing act. It really is.

41:38:00 Lizzy Ray: Yeah. What are some aspects of the Black Lives Matter movement that you think succeeded? And what are some that you think maybe failed?

41:52:00 Vera Avery: I think that the Black Lives Matter movement did a really good job of reaching across and involving a diverse group of people. Because in order for us to be successful, we can't do it on our own. We have to be able to get involvement from other groups, the larger groups, other groups in the society, because what is it a rising tide raises all boats. We have to bring everybody on board for it to work. So I think that initially they did really do a good job as far as outreach into different segments and different demographic groups. I do wish that the group were more successful in really forging an alliance with Hispanics and maybe Asians because, well, particularly Hispanics have so much, are going to have so much more being kind of the largest growing demographic, they're going to have so much more ability or so much more power in the electorate moving forward. And I just think if we could unite with them as a group and see how our futures are intertwined, it would be very helpful. But I don't know. I think the network, the way they tried to kind of, in some ways franchise different groups was very helpful because they did have this national network. But from my understanding, sometimes the way that funding is dispersed is questionable.
43:49:00 Some of the bad publicity about some of the funding irregularities of the leadership, that's always terrible when that happens because it just tars and discredits the whole group. So I do wish we had been better at... infiltrating some of the other demographic groups a little bit more into the movement, but I can understand why not sometimes, because it's been my experience that most immigrant groups, my experience, it's most groups that come into the country, they adopt, well, it's not really my experience. It's kind of proven sociology, sociologically, that they adapt the values of the majority of the group that's most empowered, and that is to place blacks is the most inferior or the least desirable group. And so they don't want to do anything to align themselves with that group because they want to surpass it. But it's just frustrating. It really is frustrating because particularly once again with Hispanics, because a lot of Hispanics, there are a lot of Hispanic black people who don't really identify.
45:13:00 They keep themselves under the overarching title of Hispanic without racially identifying. And if we could do that, it would really, I think, help cement those ties. But what did, I read something the other day about how Hispanics, now were going to be mainly classified as Hispanic white. And I thought, oh, they're doing that. So the demographics about will won't change. So whites will still be the majority. I have to go back and read the whole article, but I thought, oh, this is clever. But anyway, so I think it had a good game plan. I don't think that it really took advantage as much of the rural areas, because rural America, a lot of times where the battles are really part of one, one, and a lot of times we're just out here on our own. We have stuff happening in Charlotte, stuff happening in Greensboro and Winston, but in Salisbury and Cleveland, we're out here on our own and we have to kind of fight the battles on our own. It's very interesting when politicians organize, they come to these small areas because they know the power of these little groups of these little areas. But a lot of times, a lot of the social movement groups don't recognize that part. So...

46:47:00 Lizzy Ray: Yeah. Awesome. Bringing up the whole race relations and stuff, what do you think is the whole state of race relations in the United States?

47:05:00 Vera Avery: I don't see a lot of change over the arc of my lifetime. I don't see a lot. I mean, I think blatant racism of course, is much less accepted, but what you see now is so much, I think political manipulation that keeps us at odds with each other. It is just so frustrating sometimes. And then I don't see the advent and the increase of social media, I think has done so much to hurt race relations because people can pretty much get online and say and do anything and inflame things and put a lot of disinformation, things like that out, and you can find anybody who has your values or your views. And if you kind of stay in those little narrow areas, then it really stratifies those divisions between those groups. So it is really sad. It really is, because there was a time when I thought that things were going to get better maybe in the early eighties when I was about out of school and thought, okay, I can see more mixing, things like that. But lately, it seems like we're going back towards segregation, all of the private schools, things like that happening, North Carolina funds being diverted to support these private schools.
48:46:00 And so I feel like it's a lot of racial tension, a lot more racial tension, particularly like I said, with the groups that do migrate in. I don't know how quickly sometimes people adopt and adapt their views to align with what they feel like the majority views are. So it is sad, but I do feel like that individual, you can see a lot of cases of people forming really deep relationships with folks of different races and things like that. And so I think there's isolated cases where things are improving, but I think as a whole, it seems that people are so invested in protecting their power that particularly with politicians, they're manipulating things to keep those divisions active. So that's very sad to me.

49:57:00 Lizzy Ray: Yeah. What do you think is the future of Black Lives Matter movement, and do you think it'll be taught in schools unlike how you weren't taught about the Civil Rights Movement until high school?

50:14:00 Vera Avery: Well, I would think you have places like Florida, places like all these things with book banning, all these things where criteria and, not criteria, but what do you call it, subject matter, things like that are so policed now to make sure that people don't feel bad about things. And it's just so artificial and it's just so not helpful at all for children not to know or not to learn about the truth of the country and the way that the country is formed and the things that we have to fight for and against. And that nobody is calling any individual person bad is just saying, this is what happened. And so the Future for Black Lives Matter, I think they're going to have to really do a very strategic rebranding, particularly after some, like I say, some of the information about some of the leaders of the group. And like I say, that's a small percentage, but still, that's what gets publicized. So I think they are going to need to somewhat rebrand. I think they're going to have to work on developing more strategic partnerships with other races. But I think the original reason for the group is still very relevant. It's needed. It is a simple premise. It is something that everybody should be able to agree to, but it's going to take a lot of work, I think, to kind of repair some of the damage to the reputation.
52:21:00 But it certainly should not be abandoned because I think what happens is if something, I don't know, I don't think it should be abandoned. I think there really should be a lot of work put into trying to resurrect it. Not to say it's been dead, but I haven't heard that much about it in the last maybe six to eight months. It is not been as much in the news as it used to be. So I really hope that it does come back to the forefront, and it does continue to push because I do think a lot of people rallied around that and the ideal of it.

53:06:00 Lizzy Ray: Yeah. What else would you hope from the future of the Black Lives Matter movement?

53:12:00 Vera Avery: I would hope that there's not going to be a need for it at some point. I would hope that everybody does accept the fact that Black Lives Matter, that we are human as the next person is human. We are not a threat because of the color of our skin, that we have the right to be out in society into places familiar and unfamiliar and move around in peace without being threatened or being afraid. I just hope sometimes it comes to that. It will come to that. I don't think I'll see it. I'm 63. I don't think that I'll see, get to that point where I'm not anxious when my loved ones are out in the world. And when I say anxious, anxious about something happening to them that's racially motivated, I don't think that it'll come to that. But I do hope that there's an opportunity for maybe my great nieces and nephews to live in a different kind of world where they don't have to think about those things and don't have to worry about those things. But I'm not especially optimistic about it. The only thing I can think sometimes is that if we keep on going and intermingling and marrying and things like that, that maybe it will sometimes really truly be a melting pot, and people won't be able to actually discern or even care about what your racial makeup is, but I honestly can't imagine that.

54:57:00 Lizzy Ray: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing, Vera. I really appreciate it.

55:04:00 Vera Avery: You're welcome. And I hope it wasn't too rambling. I hope you got what you wanted.

55:08:00 Lizzy Ray: Not at all.

55:09:00 Vera Avery: But sometimes it's not stuff you even want to think about and talk about it. I did think about it for a little bit. I was like, I don't know about this because you get tired of it, you just kind of get tired of it sometimes. But anything I could do for your mom, I'm happy to do. And so through that for you, I'm happy to do so.

55:35:00 Lizzy Ray: Thank you. I appreciate it.

55:37:00 Vera Avery: Okay. Well, good luck with it. I hope it gives you what you need. And if you need to holler back at me, please do so. Okay.

55:44:00 Lizzy Ray: Of course. Thank you so much, Vera.

55:46:00 Vera Avery: Best of luck.

Part of Vera Avery